Phil Wilson (00:01)
Evelyn, welcome back to the Left To Boom show. It’s great to see you.

Evelyn (00:05)
Thanks for having me back, Phil. Appreciate being here.

Phil Wilson (00:07)
Yeah.

today we have a, a really interesting topic and we’re going to lean heavily on your experience as a former union organizer. ⁓ but we’re talking today about like what, what motivates employees, what gets employees interested in joining a union and on, our context for all of these episodes is around an employer that has already won a union election. So a group of employees have already been convinced at least one time that a union is a good idea.

So during the course of ⁓ the year after that, what are the kinds of things unions might do to convince that group of employees they made a mistake when they voted against the union the first time and they should vote it in the second time? why don’t we just start with, like, what is it that motivates ⁓ employees to join a union? And you as a former organizer, like, what would you do to kind of convince a group of people that this is a good idea?

Evelyn (01:01)
Again, thank you for having me. ⁓ And so when I was an organizer, what motivated people to join the union was when people felt that they weren’t being listened to, that they didn’t have a voice. ⁓ And as a union organizer, of course, one steps in and they act like, I’m Superman, I can solve all your problems. ⁓ And so the big thing that we used to do is listen to people’s issues, which is something that a lot of times an employer does not do, right? ⁓

when people are venting, talking about the problems, an organizer is the one that sits there, listens, says, I hear you, that is not right, they shouldn’t cheat you like that, this is why you need a union. So that’s one of the big things that, know, that’s how you start motivating and start getting in their ear, because all of a sudden it’s like, oh, someone’s listening to me, someone might be able to fix my problems.

And that’s how we kind of get into ⁓ people’s minds and hearts.

Phil Wilson (02:07)
Yeah, I think it is kind of a sales process, right? It’s, what is, ⁓ so like how would an organizer sort of begin that conversation and how would you as an organizer look at what makes a company like more or less interesting to you as an organizer?

Evelyn (02:12)
yeah.

So there’s different ways when it comes to organizing. There’s a lot of times when the ⁓ union decides to do corporate campaigns because it has to do with the class and craft. So like when I was with the teamsters, it was anything on wheels, right? Back in the days, now they branch out to anything. ⁓ But you you used to try to stick to your class and craft. And so if you did a corporate campaign, like going after nationwide trucking companies, ⁓ they would start doing that.

Another thing, another way it would happen is someone from a company maybe had a family member that worked for a union, same industry, and they would reach out to the union and say, hey, I’m interested. How do I get this started? And then there’s another way where we would just randomly target a place. I know I’ve said this a million times, but one place that we targeted was because the Western Conference coordinator

saw that company featured on Oprah and they said, well, you know, it’s gonna blow up. How about we go do what is called recon work? How many employees? How big is the company? ⁓ Who’s their supplier? And all that stuff. And if they saw that it was good for organizing, being that the type of people that were working there ⁓ is, you know, what companies are delivering there? Can we apply pressure that way?

Phil Wilson (03:30)
Mm.

Mm.

Evelyn (03:55)
then we would

go after them and start organizing that group. ⁓ Other times they would just, me and myself, I would sit out there in a bus stop and let’s just say it was a cul-de-sac with a bunch of warehouses ⁓ and start talking to people. And you’d be surprised how much information comes from sitting waiting for the bus. You know, hey, where do you work? Hey, are they, they, ⁓

Phil Wilson (04:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Evelyn (04:22)
Are they hiring people? Do you like working there? What are some of the good things, some of the bad things? And just in this organic kind of conversation, people will bring up stuff like, ⁓ I work at this warehouse. Yeah, it’s great, but sometimes they don’t give you a lot of hours. Or yeah, it’s great, but sometimes it’s mandatory over time. And so if you’re a parent, if you’re a mother, it’s really hard.

Phil Wilson (04:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Evelyn (04:50)
And it’s those little things that you would pick up on. ⁓ And then you would be like, okay, these are issues, right? I would try to get their phone number. I would follow up with them and say, hey, actually I’m a union organizer. And some of the things that you brought up half the time, they don’t even remember the things they bring up ⁓ like scheduling. We have this other location, they have a union and they have set schedule scheduling. So that’s something you would never have to worry about.

Phil Wilson (05:08)
Yeah.

Evelyn (05:19)
if you were represented by a union. So you listen to their issues and you start, you know, kind of setting up your plan, your conversation with them in order for them to be like, ⁓ so with the union, I can have X, Y, Z. And so that’s what we would start doing.

Phil Wilson (05:21)
Yeah.

So think about a company, so this series is about companies that have already been through a union election. And I don’t even know the answer to this. don’t know if you have, ⁓ like, did you have experience on the union side where like you lost an election in year one and then went back and had a vote in year two? so yeah, tell me what was that experience like? And then what were the things that you did kind of in between the first election and the second election to be successful?

Evelyn (05:43)
Okay.

huh.

Okay. So when we organize the first time, you get what is called an internal committee and you, the goal is to at least have 10 % of the unit to be part of your internal committee. Okay. So you go through the election, you lose. We would continue having contact with our internal committee. Okay. ⁓ simple text message. Hey, how are things going? Hey, ⁓

The company promised this, have they given that to you? A big one is, and you have your internal leaders within that committee, and so you would say, hey, any time the company changes anything, takes anything away, or does anything that you see that people are upset, reach out to us. And so they would be our internal people that would feedback that information.

⁓ And so anytime like there was a change of benefits if ⁓ a supervisor manager did something ⁓ Didn’t listen reprimand whatever it was We would tell them to give us that info and so that would empower that little group like okay We’re the watchdogs looking so anytime the company would slip up or do something we would get that and so when we would Start going back and talking to people

Phil Wilson (07:10)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (07:24)
We would say hey, so I heard they did this they did that didn’t they promise they were gonna be more transparent didn’t they promise this and they’re not doing that and so you start Agitating them again on those issues and it’s one of those look you gave them a chance Now give us a chance you have nothing to lose at this point truly because you already saw them Now give us a chance to do it. So that’s what we would do. We would just keep those internal committee people

Phil Wilson (07:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So I’m curious, have you had the opposite experience where you organized a group or I’m sorry, you lost an election year one and then we’re trying to do so all of this agitation but it just kind of wasn’t working and then eventually just kind of gave up. So what was the difference between those two?

Evelyn (08:02)
Yeah.

that the changes happened. ⁓ The issues were talked about. The issues were there was follow up on these issues that came up during the campaign. There was a lot of coaching. Like I noticed that when companies did a lot of coaching for their managers and supervisors, right? How to listen, how to understand the issues and how to address how to follow up. We would, you I would if it was send a Facebook, if it was text that person and they would say, no, everything’s fine. Everything’s fine.

Okay. And then it got to a point where they wouldn’t return my text messages. And that’s when I knew, you know what, it wasn’t worth my time at that point. I’m moving on to the next thing, but you would see that when the company made good on not their promises, but made good on following up on some of the issues that came up during the campaign. And the most important thing is, is at that point, the supervisors and managers were full of where of everything that happens. And then ⁓ the company would.

obviously train them of how to be more approachable, how to be better listeners. And then that was a wall that we couldn’t get through. And that’s how we would just move on to the next thing.

Phil Wilson (09:16)
I mean, you know, that is the story of this whole series of episodes in a nutshell of what it is that we’re talking about, right? It’s you, you you follow through, you already got this list of things that people were complaining about during the campaign. And so you go to work fixing the things that people were complaining about. You train your supervisors on how to be better listeners and really actually, you know, respond and listen to their teammates and…

Evelyn (09:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Phil Wilson (09:45)
You know, like you said, be approachable. so the, that is the work that you do over the course of that year. And if you do it, the folks don’t return the organizers texts anymore. And if you don’t do it, you have another union campaign, right?

Evelyn (09:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And it’s the easier union campaign because at that point it’s, you already gave them a chance. They made all these things. I mean, what new can they tell you now? You know, come join us. So it makes it easier for us.

Phil Wilson (10:04)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah. What I, what I always have said is,

you know, give me a chance. That works pretty good for a campaign. Um, give me another chance is not a very good campaign.

Evelyn (10:22)
100%. Yes.

Phil Wilson (10:25)
let’s go back a little bit to motivators. So, you know, you’ve got it’s in any company that goes through an election. There’s going to be that group of, of folks that wanted the, you that were on the organizing committee and really believed like, this is something that’s important. We should do this. I think this is a good idea. ⁓ they’re disappointed when the election’s over and they feel like, you know, maybe they were let down by their, teammates. ⁓ what are the kinds of things that, you know,

Evelyn (10:38)
huh.

Phil Wilson (10:54)
companies do either from your experience on the union side or now your experience on the management side. What are some things that companies can do to kind of bring those folks back kind of into the fold, so to speak?

Evelyn (11:10)
That one’s a little hard. mean, cause you have people that regardless, you know, ⁓ they, you know, they’re anti the company. Okay. They always have an issue with the company, but it’s not all of them. So it is picking the people that you, you know, let’s say from within that internal committee, picking the people that you feel you still have a chance with. Okay. ⁓ and a lot of times it’s, it’s helping them like just understand the way the company works.

Phil Wilson (11:15)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (11:38)
Sometimes you have to specifically highlight some of the positive things with these with those employees It’s just it’s kind of like you’re getting them as a brand new employee. You have to show them all the positive stuff about that organization and so On this side is labor consultant. That’s one of the things that that has always worked. It’s You have to reprogram them Okay, because they they went through this and now it’s like look I know these were some of the issues, but these are some of the things that we’re doing

Phil Wilson (12:01)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (12:07)
And sometimes if a company like decides to do those ⁓ employee council, employee committees, when they’re trying to find, you bring those people in and you have them, you know, be a part of it and tell them, I want you to see this process. And sometimes these would be your biggest advocates if the union comes back because it’s like, look, ⁓ I was with the union. You saw the first time I was with the union, but I’m seeing the changes that are happening.

Phil Wilson (12:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Evelyn (12:34)
and they become your advocates the second time around. But again, it’s bringing, like you said, bringing them into the fold, having them have somewhat of a say in the process because then they take ownership and that’s always positive.

Phil Wilson (12:47)
I totally, yes, absolutely. I would add, you know, the, talk about in the left to boom book about the way people are motivated, right? And you’re, and these motivators, these are the things that you, everybody psychologically needs these things fulfilled. And if they’re fulfilled by your company, you don’t really see a need for somebody else to help you with them. But if they’re not, that’s the kind of thing that

Evelyn (12:55)
Mm.

Phil Wilson (13:15)
makes a union sound like a good idea. And those things are need for power or control. You know, if you feel like you’re listened to and that your, your voice matters and that you’re, ⁓ you, you have control over your environment and that’s met at work, you’re going to, that’s going to be good. And if you feel like you have no control and your schedule changes and you don’t have any say in it and you are, ⁓

you know, you’re, you’re forced to work overtime and don’t have any notice about it. And you know, all the things that can happen, then, then you’re going to go like, I don’t have control of my life and I don’t like that. And so then if the company won’t fix that for you, you will look outside. And so the other needs are your need for achievement. Like I feel like I’m making progress in my life. I feel like I’m recognized for the work that I do. And then the other need is need for affiliation. Like I feel like I’m working on a winning team.

I feel like I really belong here. Like those, those needs, if they’re met at work, then you’re going to be happy. And if they’re not met at work, you’re going to be unhappy. And then, and then to go back to the point you were making about bringing the folks that are like quote unquote complainers, right? There’s a, those folks are leaders, right? A group of people that band together and are like, I don’t like this thing about work. And I,

want it fixed and we’ve talked to management about it and they’re not fixing it. And so we’re going to take another step to try to make this thing right. Those folks have a lot of leadership potential. And if it is just like you said, if you that is oriented the right direction, those needs can be met inside the company without the need for outside representation. Now you’re right. There are some people that just want to watch the town burn and they hate

Evelyn (15:06)
Yeah.

Phil Wilson (15:07)
capitalism and like they’re never ever going to have those needs met inside because they hate like companies wherever they work. They’re going to they’re going to hate it. ⁓ But the vast majority of people are not like that. Yeah.

Evelyn (15:21)
Right. vast

majority of people, when they complain and bring up issues, I’d rather use that term, it’s because they care about their work environment. Okay, these are people that truly want to see change. A lot of times, I’m not being given the tools that I need. You’re making me do it this way, but I know there’s a better, more efficient way of doing it. And yes, you have to decipher between what is complaining and what is… ⁓

Phil Wilson (15:31)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (15:48)
bringing up issues, masks in a complaint, right? But a lot of them, it’s because they truly care. They have pride in the work that they do and they want to be able to be successful. ⁓ They just, you know, they join the wrong team because that’s what their promise. you’re going to have a say, you’re going to have this, you’re going to have that, right? ⁓ And it’s just, these are people that really do care. And like you said, there’s the ones that, you know, a small percentage that don’t, they just are like, screw this company, screw everything else.

Phil Wilson (16:03)
We have.

Evelyn (16:18)
But most of the majority of them do hear. And so, you know, it’s important to listen because they will be your advocate.

Phil Wilson (16:25)
And

I think if you’ve gone through an election and you’ve won, your team, the majority of your team has said, we’re willing to give you a chance. And you have to embrace the folks that thought going outside was the answer because they’re going to be there next year. They are, like you said, they are people that care about their workplace and they need to see from you.

that like you care about them and that you are listening to them and that you’re not just listening to the people that agree with you. Like you want people to contribute even if it is seems negative and even if it seems like a complaint that you want to hear that and need to hear.

Evelyn (16:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and it’s about how you react to it, how you respond, and most importantly, how you follow up. Okay, because they can bring it up. You can say, okay, sounds great, but it’s the follow up that really does matter. ⁓ That way, if someone like myself as an organizer, I come up and say, hey, but you bring this stuff up and what happens? Where does it go from there when you bring up these issues? The employee can say, well, when I bring up this issue,

Phil Wilson (17:36)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (17:39)
My manager, my supervisor is my biggest advocate. They go to bat for me. They make sure, you know, there’s stuff that can be changed and even the things that can’t be changed. My manager comes back and talks to me about it. And we think of other ways that we can go about this. But the follow-up is what’s key because the last thing you want is for an employee to feel, I bring these issues up and it just, I don’t know where it goes. Or the other thing too is, is the way your manager and supervisor are talking about

the company in general. If issues come up and they just say, well, you know, so Evelyn company, the higher ups said no, then all of a sudden it’s like, then they’re the enemy. But if they’re, they’re able to communicate, look, you know, I brought this up and these are some of the things that they said and, you know, talk about it. All of a sudden it’s, it’s everyone’s a team. There’s no, I’m bringing this issue up and you know, higher ups, they just said no. You, when you start doing that, it just, it,

Phil Wilson (18:10)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (18:37)
It’s very negative for the employees and they, the higher ups become the enemy. But when you talk it through, when you deliver the message in a positive way, that makes a really big difference too. So it’s really important for managers and supervisors to be able to convey those messages properly.

Phil Wilson (18:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And that really comes down to top management, like leaning on first level supervisors, arming them with information, making sure that they, like you ha you kind of, you know, your first job is to convince them, right. That we’re a good company and to make sure that you’re listening to them and their, you their issues. Like if their experience is, I’m always told, no, when I bring up something and nobody’s available to listen to me, why are they going to act any different towards their team?

Evelyn (19:08)
Mm-hmm.

Phil Wilson (19:22)
Right? if… Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Evelyn (19:22)
Yeah, their team starts mirroring them. You know,

like no one, you know, you’re right. No one listens to us. And it’s just, yeah, you just bring that back down to your team. And so it’s just really important to just, you know, keep in mind you are, you know, you represent the company and be able to convey those messages properly and positively.

Phil Wilson (19:31)
Mm-hmm.

So what are the signals? So let’s say you’re kind of like seven months in from your, you know, the win of the election. Okay. So you’ve had, you know, six or seven months post election. Yeah. There’s probably like a flurry of activity that happens right after the election. And then you kind of get into, you know, maybe you fall back into some old bad habits or whatever. What are some of the signals that ⁓ maybe we haven’t made enough progress? What would be the signs?

that a company might be looking out for to go, man, this looks like we may have another election. What kinds of things would you tell a company to be on the lookout for?

Evelyn (20:23)
When your employees start shutting down, okay, when they stop voicing their issues, when, know, it’s just, and we hear it, you know, sometimes it’s like, how are, you know, how are things on the floor? you hearing anything? Everything’s going good. And then the employer says, or the supervisor manager, you know, it’s just really quiet. No one’s saying anything. No one’s complaining. That is, that is a very, that’s a big sign. Okay. Because at that point it’s why am I going to voice my opinion to you? My,

Phil Wilson (20:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (20:52)
complaints, my issues, you’re not going to do anything. And they’re voicing it somewhere else. So that’s always a big thing. You know, and when I talk to supervisors, managers, and they’re like, it’s really quiet. I’m like, ooh, okay. And then you go to the typical things to look out for, you know, especially if you’re, if you know your super your employees, are they, you know, getting together, ⁓ people hanging out that usually don’t hang out.

Phil Wilson (21:04)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (21:20)
You know, you start seeing these little things that you feel are a little off. But again, the biggest sign is when all of a sudden everyone just goes kind of quiet and you don’t hear anything.

Phil Wilson (21:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And

the advantage an employer has going in, you in that, in that year is you kind of already know who was, who was, were the key organizers like the last time. So, you know, obviously we’re not talking about engaging in surveillance, but like you, like, you know who those folks are and you can, you know, you’re, they’re either engaging with you or they’re not. Right. And so, ⁓ if they are engaging with you, that’s a good sign. If they are, you know,

Evelyn (21:54)
Mm-hmm.

Phil Wilson (21:59)
not engaging with you and engaging in kind of all the same kinds of behavior that they did the first election, that’s a signal. ⁓ And I totally agree. A friend of mine, he’s been a leader in a company for ⁓ a long time. And one of the things he says is that the worst HR and employee relations blow ups that he’s experienced in his career were not loud.

They were silent, right? It’s when things get quiet that you’ve got a problem. If people are complaining, at least they’re talking to you, right? It’s when they stop talking to you that that’s an issue.

Evelyn (22:42)
an issue that’s that red flag. And like you said, you know, when you have those key union organizers, ⁓ internal committee, and they’re popping up in different ⁓ areas that they don’t work in and start that’s yeah, you start look, you start seeing that. And that’s how you know. And that’s how you know you drop the ball and get ready for another campaign.

Phil Wilson (22:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, or get to work. You know, if you’re at the seven month mark, there’s still, you know, almost half a year left. now that’s happening at the 11 month mark. Maybe there’s no time, but well, Evelyn, this has been, ⁓ this has been great. We’re coming up on time. Why don’t we, let’s wrap up with just, you know, what are, you know, two or three tips and, what advice would you give to somebody that’s in this boat where, ⁓ they’ve been through an election.

Evelyn (23:07)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Wilson (23:34)
They won the election. What do you think are the two or three things that they should really prioritize working on the most?

Evelyn (23:42)
Number one is looking at those issues that did come up, those campaign issues that came up. Again, there’s some stuff that you can change and there’s other things that need to be explained. Okay, and you put those in those categories and you have those conversations with the employees. ⁓ The other thing that’s very important and sometimes, you know, after a campaign you realize, I never thought that person would have gone to that side, you know. ⁓ Get to know your employees better is key.

Phil Wilson (24:06)
Mm.

Evelyn (24:10)
You know, there’s a reason why you thought this person would have been with you and then all of a sudden they’re wearing a vote yes shirt. Find out what’s going on. What are they lacking? ⁓ And so those are, to me, I mean, it comes down to two big things. It’s addressing those issues that came up and having those conversations and knowing your employees. Okay, the why. Why did they, why were they with that? ⁓ What am I dropping? What are they missing? What am I not fulfilling for them?

Phil Wilson (24:16)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (24:37)
And those are to me the two really important things ⁓ for you to do. And then the top one is just really make them feel like they’re a part, they have a voice. ⁓ And that’s just the top three things at top of my mind, top of my head that are really important.

Phil Wilson (24:56)
Yeah, and I would add to your second point, those go back to those motivators, right? Am I fulfilling those needs, control, ⁓ power, ⁓ achievement and recognition, ⁓ affiliation, what are we doing to make sure that those needs are filled ⁓ at work? And then the only other thing I would add is just those frontline supervisors. Like that is the key group. ⁓

Evelyn (25:01)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

Phil Wilson (25:26)
that you need to win that group over more than you need to win over the rest of the team. Cause if that group is one over, you’re winning. ⁓ And if that group is not like oftentimes, I mean, we see it all the time. It’s not uncommon now that like that’s the group that starts a campaign.

Evelyn (25:28)
huh.

Yeah.

That’s true. it’s, you know, you look at it you’re like, do they have the tools to be the the leaders we want them to be? ⁓ Because they’re the face of the company. Right. And like you said, a lot. I’ve had campaigns recently where it’s it starts with them because they feel they’re not being listened to. They feel that they’re just given one, you know, one sentence ⁓ answers. And so really empowering them, giving them the tools.

Phil Wilson (25:48)
Mm-hmm.

Evelyn (26:11)
teaching them how to be listeners, teaching them how they can, know, giving them certain things that they’re in charge of, right? That they have the autonomy to, I can make these decisions, that decision, that really empowers them and that’s key. Having your supervisors feel like they’re being listened to.

Phil Wilson (26:32)
That’s great. I think we should end right there. That’s a, that’s really, really important advice. ⁓ always a pleasure to talk to you, Evelyn. I love catching up with you. ⁓ so thanks. Thanks so much for joining us and we’ll talk again soon.

Evelyn (26:48)
Okay, thank you for having me. Alright, bye.