Phil Wilson, Michael Vandervort & Fiona Jameson.

Phil Wilson: [00:00:10]

Hi everyone! Today’s episode is with Fiona Jameson, CEO of Spring International. Fiona is one of my favorite people. If you don’t already know her, I can’t wait to introduce you to her. Fiona’s company does employee engagement research and tons of data analytics. She calls herself a data geek. But we cover a lot of ground. Today we talk about the latest in employee engagement. We talk about what it takes to be a great leader. We also talk about some of the latest technology in collecting employee sentiment and employee engagement research. And we finally end with a little challenge between us and British music. So, enjoy today’s episode where we interview Doctor Fiona Jameson of Spring International.

Michael Vandervort: [00:00:53]

Hello, everyone. This is Michael Vandervort. I’m here with my co-host Phil Wilson, and we’re going to record another episode of The Left The Boom Show. We’re going to have our guests join us in just one second, and we’re going to speak to her about workplace survey technology, enjoyment in the workplace, and then have some fun to wrap up, talking about the British invasion versus the US invasion of Britain or something like that. It’s got to do with music, but we’ll see where it goes.

Fiona Jameson: [00:01:22]

Hi, guys. It’s wonderful to be here.

Michael Vandervort: [00:01:24]

Our guest is Fiona Jameson. Fiona is the CEO of Spring International. Welcome. Why don’t you start out and just tell our listeners who may not know you, who you are and what you do?

Fiona Jameson: [00:01:37]

Well, thanks. Yeah, I appreciate being here. As you said, my name is Fiona Jamison. I run a company called Spring International. We are an employee research and people analytics firm. My background is in IO psychology and HR, so I get to geek out every day listening to employees and helping our clients make the most of the teams that they have.

Michael Vandervort: [00:02:01]

Yeah. The geek thing is very apt for you. You’re my favorite data analyst person and all that kind of thing, and a key partner to LRI as well. Someone that we do a lot of work together with and that kind of thing. So, we’re really delighted, obviously, to have you here on the show. To start us off, Fiona, we like to ask the same question or a version of it with every guest. And that question is in your life as you developed as an employee and became the person you are today, was there a leader or someone who maybe believed in you more than you believed in yourself? And if so, who are they and what did they do?

Fiona Jameson: [00:02:47]

So, I’ve been really lucky. I’ve had two key mentors in my life. The first one was a gentleman called Lazaro, who was a professor that I had in the UK. He was an incredibly smart man. And he actually taught me statistics, and he taught me how to take really complex information. And he explained it in layman’s terms because I am by no means a mathematician. And he always used to talk about how data should inspire change. It should really inspire how people behave and how you make things better.

[00:03:22]

So, he very much was about taking something really complex and making it actionable. And then the second person who you know is Dr. Robert Barrier, who was the founder of this organization, Spring International. And he was inspiring on many levels. Again, an incredibly intelligent man with a wonderful career in political polling and communications. But what I learned the most from him was about how to run a business, and he always put his people first and family first.

[00:03:54]

There were so many instances in the first ten years of working with him where he would say, “Hey, you need to go home, the baseball game is about to play,” or whatever it is. He would put people and family first. And I think that’s something I valued from the very beginning, and it’s hopefully something that I maintain as a legacy for him, that he provided a place for me as a working mom, to have a career and do what I love to do, but also be able to have that work-life balance. And I think there’s not a lot of organizations at least a decade or so ago where you had that. So, he was really supportive of me in that early career.

Phil Wilson: [00:04:30]

I’ve had the honor of knowing Robert. I didn’t know a long time. I also had the honor of, watching you grow and develop under his wing and then into the CEO and leader that you are. You can definitely see how he’s influenced you and how that’s influenced how you run your business and created the terrific culture that you’ve created and carried on there at Spring. And then interestingly, so sounds like was all about telling stories with the data. I have behind me here a gift that you gave me, which is Tell Your Story. That’s one of your great strengths as well, right? You take the data, but it’s like, what’s the story behind this data?

Fiona Jameson: [00:05:29]

Yeah. I learned so much from both of them. They’re both very humble individuals. And I think for someone who fell into this career, it wasn’t necessarily something I always wanted to do. I think they gave me guidance, and I truly think that those key skills that they taught me are what help me translate that now for our clients. If we had a bad culture at my company in Spring, how could I be telling other companies how to improve their culture? What I learned from them, I hopefully implement for myself with my own company, but also with our clients. So, they help me out a lot for sure.

Michael Vandervort: [00:06:07]

I’m just curious. I didn’t think to add this to the list, so this is the first unscripted question for you, Fiona. Sorry. Since that transition happened over a period of time, and I know it’s been a few years. How do you feel you have changed or adapted from what Robert created to whatever it is that Spring is now? What impact have you brought or is it very similar still?

Fiona Jameson: [00:06:35]

I think it’s still fairly similar. I think that what he did, he would bring the political communications spin to a lot of what he did. And I would say my background is in HR, so I tend to think more broadly in terms of human resources, and that the practice of human resources and all of the elements of whether it be compensation or benefits or employee relations and all of those pieces. So, I think we probably focus more on some of the HR practices today than we did when Robert was in charge.

[00:07:15]

Not that we didn’t then, but I think because that’s my background and my comfort level, that’s where I tend to focus. And I’m definitely more experimental when it comes to technology then than perhaps Robert was. But a lot of it wasn’t around when we first started doing surveys and we were collecting them on paper. All that data entry back in the day.

Michael Vandervort: [00:07:40]

Yeah, that was a whole different world. We’re going to talk a bit about AI in a little bit and about how it impacts some of the work that you do. So, that’s the latest development. But yeah, it’s got to be way different. So, one of the first things when I was putting the questions together- we were going to do this show a while back, and then we had to delay it. So, the questions are still pertinent. But one of the things that you were talking about then, when I first put the questions together is you’re talking about daily enjoyment at work.

[00:08:10]

I was kind of reading what you were talking about on LinkedIn and that sort of thing. And so, what does that mean to you? It seemed to be a concept that you had some interest in. So, what does that mean to you?

Fiona Jameson: [00:08:25]

Yeah, it’s our mantra at Spring, right? Your company succeeds when everyone has a great day at work. And the way we tend to think about it, and this is also the way we measure it, is we think about four things. We think about who you are as an organization, how you lead, what you offer, and how you operate. And those four areas in my mind really cover this experience of work. So, who we are is like, are you aligned to the strategy? What’s your mission like? Are you connected to what the company that you’re working for is doing? The second is how you lead, right?

[00:08:56]

So are leaders treating people with respect? Are they supporting them, removing barriers, and getting people the resources they need to do their jobs? How you operate is how you get stuff done. Right. So, it’s have I got the tools I need? Do I have the staff that I need? Are the policies and practices helping me, not hindering me? And then the last piece is perhaps one of the most critical, which is what you offer as an employer, which is things like pay, fair pay, benefits, training, opportunity, growth, recognition.

[00:09:28]

So, that part of the psychological contract that we have with employees- you show up to work every day or whenever you were supposed to show up, and we pay you for your time and we respect you in the process. So, I think if you have all of those things in place, someone can have a great day at work. And I think the most successful companies are the ones that are thinking about all those different parts of that employee experience.

Phil Wilson: [00:09:55]

Yeah. That’s great. The way we talk about that here is creating extraordinary workplaces. So, you know, out of the ordinary. And I’m curious- I always like to focus on practical takeaways. So, just as a business owner- because I totally agree with you. If you don’t have a great culture in your own company, how do you expect to teach others to have a great culture in theirs? And we’ve done a lot of work in this area over the last few years. I’m curious, in your own company, what are some of your practical go-to ways that you create that engagement and create that exciting culture?

Fiona Jameson: [00:10:42]

I think a lot of it is through teamwork. A lot of it is through spending time together as a team, whether that’s on projects, socially connecting, even if it’s virtually. My team is pretty much 100% virtual so it’s intentional connection points with the team. And talking about the good stuff and the bad stuff. If you have a difficult client, let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about how we can support you. If you have an amazing client, what can we learn from it, and how can we take those best practices and share them amongst each other?

[00:11:13]

And so, I think it’s a lot about interrelationships that we have. We’re a small team. But you still have to be intentional. Otherwise, I could go weeks without talking to someone. It’s very easy to do that virtually. Sometimes I’d love to go weeks without talking to people. I need to be more intentional about that.

Phil Wilson: [00:11:32]

Where are the spreadsheets [laughs]?

Fiona Jameson: [00:11:34]

I also think it’s making sure you have people with different skill sets on your team. I have people who are so organized and creative thinkers and truly analytical people, and then big thinkers. And having a combination of people who work together, bringing those strengths together as a force as opposed to working independently, I think is what makes a successful internally.

Phil Wilson: [00:12:05]

Yeah. We’ve just here started this little journey around work styles. And it’s been really interesting. We started with the leadership team and now we’re doing it for the rest of the team. But really just understanding everybody’s wired a little bit differently. And it’s not even necessarily what you’re good at, but it’s like what brings you joy. Ahat what is it that like gives you energy in terms of work tasks and work style? And then what are things that drag you down? And then who else on the team?

[00:12:42]

We’ve learned some really interesting things. It’s like, oh, no wonder, this is such a challenge. Wow! We should be including this other person. Whenever we’re dealing with a situation like this, we need to have these two working together because this is something that brings this person no energy and this person loves doing. They need to be paired up on a team. But that kind of stuff is so important.

Fiona Jameson: [00:13:07]

Every single year with every team member, we have a conversation about what you love doing and what have you enjoyed about these last three months. What have you hated doing? And we’ll try to reassign people or give them more of what they love and share the pain. If you’ve got people with different skills, they love different parts of the research process. And so, we try to leverage that. We do it through regular- I wouldn’t call them performance conversations. I would call them regular check-ins.

Phil Wilson: [00:13:37]

Yeah. We do something similar. But yeah, it’s great.

Michael Vandervort: [00:13:41]

Yeah. At LRI we talk a lot. Phil talks about this a lot . And that’s not always the easiest match to make. So, continuing with the enjoyment at work piece. Physical and cultural environment influence employee engagement and satisfaction in different ways. There’s a huge debate right now that almost every organization, regardless of size except maybe you, since you’re almost 100% virtual, the return to office, the hybrid, the remote work, how much flexibility. All these things have seemingly since Covid have become way more important in the workplace. So, how does the physical culture, the environment where you work, how do those things impact the workplace feeling?

Fiona Jameson: [00:14:33]

I think it’s huge. I’ve had the honor of working in many different industries throughout my career. I started off in manufacturing. I worked in retail. I’ve been in every environment from a very dirty one where I was stuffing turkeys to a very clean office environment where a turkey has never been. And so, I’ve had the benefit. But I think you’ve got to get the basics right. You’ve got to have a clean environment. You’ve got to have good lighting and ventilation and places for people to take breaks and be able to step away from the work.

[00:15:13]

If you’re on your feet all day, having somewhere to sit that’s comfortable. As long as the basics are done. So, that’s key. We shouldn’t forget about the basics because. If you have employees with a dirty bathroom, they interpret that as you don’t care about me. So, the basics are still really important today. The second level is that sort of people management. Having a good leader. The way a leader behaves dictates the culture. We model what we see. We react to a reaction.

[00:15:44]

So, having good leadership. I think this final piece about work-life balance and flexibility has become increasingly important since COVID-19. It’s more about how we empower our employees to have some say in what they do. Because in some environments you’ve still got to be there. You have to be there, and you have to be there for a certain amount of hours. But giving people visibility into what that might look like for the next six months, allowing me a schedule.

[00:16:14]

We worked with a manufacturer recently where employees knew for the whole year what their shifts were going to be so they could plan their lives around it. and they also gave employees empowerment to be able to swap shifts with coworkers. And empowered them at the individual level. So, even in environments where virtual is an option, I think companies can be flexible with scheduling and availability and empowering employees. Because if you don’t empower employees, they’ll empower themselves, and they’ll walk away. And I think if you don’t keep up with that, you’re going to lose some of the talent that you have.

Michael Vandervort: [00:16:53]

And of course, some environments are more challenged to offer that kind of flexibility. You mentioned retail. A grocery store can’t send a grocery clerk home. They have to put stuff up on the shelf in the store. So, you can’t work hybrid there. So, there you have to impact them in different ways. And you work with all sorts of clients and all sorts of different environments. How do you see people respond to that? What are you seeing these days in terms of that overall challenge of flexibility? What are you seeing employers do?

Fiona Jameson: [00:17:28]

I think, again, it’s about giving them flexibility where you can give them flexibility with choosing the shifts that they can work, allowing them to work extra shifts if they want more. I think it’s about getting creative, using technology where you can for people to pick the times that they work or get paid in a different way. So, it’s about finding different ways. And then I think the other piece of it that’s gotten really important lately is around mental health. There’s been an awful lot of burnout. And we’re hearing burnout from every level of the organization.

[00:18:00]

So, it’s how do we support employees to say when you’re feeling burnt out, here’s this resource for you. It’s okay to talk about it if you need to take time off. I was talking to a client in healthcare the other day who was saying one of their biggest challenges is they have tons of PTO, but they can’t take it because they don’t have enough staff, they don’t have the coverage, and it’s burning them out. So, I think getting creative with the use of temporary staff or doubling up on things to allow people to take time off so they don’t get burned out and leave the industry.

[00:18:34]

So, I think there’s a lot that companies can do to support mental health and physical health that can help balance the ability of having that sort of flexibility.

Phil Wilson: [00:18:47]

Yeah. We deal with this in our own shop and we see it with a lot of our clients. It’s a balancing act of flexibility on the one hand, which you want to be able to give. There’s also a personal responsibility component to it. It’s great to be flexible, but if that means that you’re going to dump a bunch of responsibility onto a peer, you’re now potentially shifting the potential burnout to somebody else on the team. Just trying to get the right balance of all that is really challenging as an employer. It’s challenging to get all that right.

[00:19:34]

And there’s no perfect way to do it. And I think businesses go through seasons and you’re never going to get it exactly right. But I think the big thing is just from the employer standpoint, just being mindful about it, thinking about it all the time, really trying to help strike that correct balance. That’s really the main thing. And then you’ve already mentioned, having these regular check-ins where it’s like, how are we doing? How are you doing? What’s next? That’s really key.

Michael Vandervort: [00:20:10]

I think communication, commitment to fulfilling your responsibilities as an employee, plus the company’s commitment to maintaining that. If you’re going to say we have a flexible culture or whatever it is, you have to do that. You can’t say it and then waffle on it. I think a lot of companies and maybe not so much companies, but maybe leaders within companies do because they prioritize the bottom line over the other types of commitments or whatever from time to time.

[00:20:49]

Anecdotally, I remember I was working at a company 20 years ago, and we had our first visit. We had just been acquired by a new corporate owner, and it was the first bigwig visit from the corporate mothership flying in. And so, the manager of the site that I operated out of cleaned everything up and made all the customer-centric areas spotless and wonderful. But they had a really bad employee locker room and they didn’t clean it up. And this guy wanted to see the employee locker room. And when he saw it, his face literally turned purple.

[00:21:25]

We were on a corporate jet going to the next location to the next set of town hall meetings, and he’s grilling me. He’s that guy that runs that place. What does he do? And that guy was gone from the company within the next couple of weeks because that manager from our corporate mothership said he didn’t know how to treat employees. The guy did everything right for the customer end of it, but lost his job because he didn’t put any weight at all on it. I had never seen that before.

[00:21:52]

I was simultaneously marveled at the commitment that the guy had, but also how lethal he was. But it sent a message through our whole division. That stood out for sure. And so, with that story behind us, the next question, which is, we say all the time leaders make all the difference. What do you think the secret sauce is, Fiona, for leaders to make the difference?

Fiona Jameson: [00:22:21]

I thought about this question a lot and my answer comes from both my own personal experience and what I see, what I’ve observed as well. I think it falls into three areas. I think the number one is emotional intelligence in a leader. And part of that is being self-aware, self-aware of the impact that you have on others. Once you put on a leadership hat, people view you differently. And having empathy with others, but also regulating your own emotional reaction to things. So, as a leader, knowing when all hell is breaking loose and the fires are burning, keep your hat on right and show calm. And that will build confidence and trust in you.

[00:23:05]

So, being able to be that calm person in a disaster or crisis is key. The second is communication. And I think active listening for me is the key. And obviously, that’s what we do as a business. Your employees know more than anyone about your business, so listening to them, hearing them, implementing and incorporating their ideas and their perspectives into your decision-making, I think, can make you a really good leader. And if you’re a smart leader, you’ll hire people smarter than you. So, you want to leverage that knowledge and that resource.

[00:23:37]

And then the third I think is really around having some vision and strategy. Knowing where you’re going and being able to communicate that in a way that motivates others. So, we’re going to improve the US workforce experience by improving one employer at a time, and helping them to listen and make their experience better. So, having a clear mission and a vision and being able to communicate that. I think those, for me, are the three key areas that I see. I’ve both experienced really good leadership in that, and I try to do it myself. And they’re all higher-level leadership skills, I think.

Phil Wilson: [00:24:20]

I’ve seen you lead and I feel like you’re a great example of all three of those things. You’re very self-aware. And I think you and I commiserate with each other because we’re wired similarly. We’re good at some things and we’re not good at some things.

Fiona Jameson: [00:24:41]

But we own it.

Phil Wilson: [00:24:43]

Yeah. But that’s really important for your team to see, right? It’s like, “Look, I know I need to have a team around me because I’m terrible at stuff and I need people that are really good at that or we can’t really succeed. And yeah, there’s some stuff that I’m good at, so we need to design things so that I can do more of that and not be doing this stuff that I’m terrible at.” I’ve seen you do the same thing. But most leaders aren’t like that. Most leaders are just like, “I got this. I’m in charge.”

Fiona Jameson: [00:25:21]

My way or the highway.

Michael Vandervort: [00:25:25]

That’s the leader that drives me crazy and I think leads to the most problems in most workplaces- because that my way or the highway is a bad path. That’s why we talk about burnout and flexibility and employee mental health because some folks just don’t get it right.

Fiona Jameson: [00:25:46]

But I’d much rather say I need to get there. Y’all can tell me which is the fastest road and let’s get on it together. Because I know the people on my team are smarter than I am

Phil Wilson: [00:26:08]

You have very smart people. But if your bar is they got to be smarter than you, that is a high bar. I’ll just say that.

Fiona Jameson: [00:26:16]

Bless you for saying it. You’re going to make me blush on camera.

Michael Vandervort: [00:26:21]

Yeah, we can see your face got a little pinker. It’s a good look.

Phil Wilson: [00:26:26]

Let’s move on [laughs].

Michael Vandervort: [00:26:27]

Okay. So, switching over to the actual technology aspects of some things. So, you guys are a survey company. You collect data, analyze it, and help people do things better by telling them what the data should show and how they could learn from it, or something like that. And you do it with a lot of different companies. Today, you mentioned paper, bubble sheets, and all that kind of stuff. The old way. What does the state of survey technology look like today? What are you what are you guys doing? Is it pulse surveys? Is it still the annual surveys? Walk us through your industry a bit and share with us trends.

Fiona Jameson: [00:27:10]

So, it’s changing a lot. And I think AI and machine learning have got a lot to do with it. But it’s also just a change in philosophy that a once-a-year survey is not enough anymore. We have to build out a more holistic employee listening continuous improvement approach to leveraging that resource. They’re our most important resource. Let’s make sure we’re using them in a regular way and not just forgetting that we have this fabulous resource. So, we’re seeing tools and technology advance.

[00:27:41]

We’re seeing more sentiment analysis with algorithms and AI being incorporated. We’re seeing real-time feedback systems. So pulse surveys, things that are customized and targeted to certain audiences. So now you can say, let’s just ask these three questions of this group of people. And let’s ask these two questions for this group. So, everything can be a little bit more targeted and a little bit more focused. The annual surveys are still important because you still need a census, just like you do in the US.

[00:28:10]

We still need to know who all is out there and what do you all think at the same time. Surveys are a point in time. So, I think censuses are still critical but may be used for different purposes today, maybe more to understand trends and the landscape versus real-time action and feedback. We’re also seeing more AI-generated action plans and things like that. So, if we see this information, what would we recommend? If we see this pattern, what would we recommend?

[00:28:38]

So, a lot of the more hands-on tasks are somewhat disappearing and becoming more automated, which I think is good, and now it’s allowing us analysts to spend more time being creative, doing the bigger thinking, guiding strategic plans. So, I think the data is getting more accessible to clients. We have dashboards that enable them to look at multiple data sources at once through one lens. Whereas in the past, maybe they had to go to 4 or 5 different systems. Now you can have a dashboard that pulls it all together for a specific purpose that enables you, for example, to send out your employee relations teams to where it really matters.

[00:29:23]

So, I think a lot of data collaboration, data consolidation, and the speeding up a lot of those coding, old fashioned coding ways of doing things, they still get done, but maybe in a much more efficient way now.

Phil Wilson: [00:29:40]

I’m just curious because there is so much data now and it’s much more available and easier to access. Then the flip side of that is a lot of times it’s just an overwhelming amount of information. And I’m curious, what do you do with your clients to balance the look, there’s all these different slices that we could do with this but practically, here’s the most important thing you can do based on what we’ve learned. And we can learn it over and over again. But if you just work on this one thing, you’re going to see results. How do you balance that?

Fiona Jameson: [00:30:20]

That’s a great question. A lot of what we do is actually helping companies mature in terms of their data analytics. So, you could have 500 data points, but you don’t need to look at all of them. So we help them whittle them down to the most important ones, the ones that have the most impact on employee engagement or profitability or safety numbers or whatever it is. So, we’ll run analysis that helps them to say, okay, these are the key indicators that you really need to track. So, a lot of our job is about focusing them on the things that really matter.

[00:30:54]

So, if they say we want to build a dashboard with 300 variables, I’ll be like, no, no, no, no, let’s narrow that down to 20. And let’s talk about why it’s these 20 and how we interpret them. The other piece of the puzzle that doesn’t often get talked about is there are a lot of people who are not data savvy. There are a lot of people who are uncomfortable with numbers, especially in HR. They got into HR because they love people and they like dealing and interrelationships. They didn’t join HR because they want to look at numbers all day.

[00:31:22]

So there’s also this, I would say parallel process that we’re going through with a lot of our clients, which is educating them on it’s okay. It doesn’t have to be intimidating. These are the four numbers that you need to be looking at. And here’s how to interpret them. And training them to get comfortable with data interpretation. Because it doesn’t have to be scary. And I think that’s somethone back in the day, who taught me multiple regression and t-tests and all of the advanced statistics.

[00:31:51]

He said, “Listen, this is the number you care about, and here’s why you care about it, and here’s how you explain it to someone else. And this is how you would respond if you saw a number like this. That’s all they need to know.” And so, they don’t need to know the algorithm or the formula behind it. They just need to know if I’ve got a 42, I better worry. That represents everyone’s about to leave or whatever it might be.

Michael Vandervort: [00:32:26]

So, the other change obviously has been access to things like cell phones, the internet. Forgetting AI- we’re going to jump there in a second. How do you typically do a survey these days? Is it on cell phones? Is it still sitting down at a terminal? What are the tools that people use these days? And especially because you work with all kinds of different organizations, including many that are remote or the workers are singular on the road type people, that sort of thing. So, what’s going on there?

Fiona Jameson: [00:33:04]

So, it really varies by the environment. I actually have teams of people out right now who are traveling with 20 tablets that are going to a manufacturing site that is sitting down, setting up the tablets, and everybody comes in the room and takes it on a tablet, and then they go because they’re not allowed cell phones. They’re not allowed to cell phones on the floor. They’re not really they’re in the locker room. So, that was an easy way. Anybody that does have easy phone access, just clicks a QR code, just like you do in a restaurant today, and have to look up your menu. And you have to increase the font size because you’re getting blind and old.

[00:33:40]

Our surveys are just delivered however works best. So, cell phones are obviously the number one way that most people take it today. We’re still emailing people. We text people. It really is we try to go to them where they are. I just ran some online focus groups for physicians who were on shift work, and it was open for 48 hours. They could log on at any time, answer questions, take some polls, respond to one another, have a conversation all with our team moderating that conversation.

[00:34:18]

And the instant result is you get a transcript and a summary of how that conversation was. So, we really try to meet clients where they are. I have a client later this month I will be bringing paper surveys. So, we don’t throw out the old when we’re using the new. In some cases, some people are more comfortable writing a note. And that’s different by generation too. People who aren’t cell phone savvy or believe it or not, there are people who still don’t have a smartphone.

Phil Wilson: [00:34:52]

Right. And some people don’t trust putting stuff into a computer. Probably more people should not trust what they’re putting into it. I don’t think paper and pencil goes away anytime soon.

Fiona Jameson: [00:35:06]

No. And I think now there are ways to scan in that information to remove human error data entry. So, I think at either end of data collection you can use technology to enhance the process. But I think we leverage whatever tool is most appropriate for the audience that we’re serving.

Michael Vandervort: [00:35:27]

One last question about the technology that you use. And then we’ll switch to AI as a topic for a second. I remember hearing you talk a few years ago at an event we were at about sentiment analysis as you read through your survey open-ended question responses, how you could analyze that type of stuff. And now, with AI, you can monitor messaging systems and email systems and stuff like that. Do you guys touch on that and is it effective? I think you said back then it was still somewhat developing. It was more of an art than a science or something along those lines. Where is that at today?

Fiona Jameson: [00:36:06]

It’s gotten much better in terms of theming thematically. You could put in a whole bunch of survey responses and have a summary of what’s being said. And it’ll do here are the three topics that came out, and here are the most positive and the most negative. You can certainly do that. I think for individual comment coding, like what is this one comment about and what is this one comment about, that still needs human oversight. AI does not interpret humor or sarcasm or it still interprets some words incorrectly.

[00:36:42]

So, I think, “Yeah, he’s a great leader, couldn’t fight his way out of a paper bag.” It’ll pick up “great leader” and not “couldn’t fight his way out of a paper bag.” So, I think there still needs to be some oversight with the AI. And I think that’s where AI can speed up the process. It can make it more efficient, but I don’t think it solves everything. And I think it’s important to have human interpretation, too. Because we’ll know more, right? We’ll know well, that’s a really hot environment and they’ve been standing on their feet all day. So, we know why they’re talking about temperature.

[00:37:21]

Or something that AI doesn’t understand. So, I think we’re on a journey. I think it continues to be a journey. And we’re not there yet to allow the machine to do the work for us. I see the output of that, to be honest, in some of our competitors. And I go, that’s nonsense. That comment isn’t about X, Y, or Z. And I’m like, why would you? So, there’s the point of automating to the point of garbage in, garbage out. So, I’m a little old school with let’s make sure the humans confirm what the machine is spitting out.

Michael Vandervort: [00:37:59]

As I said, I did some research on things that we were going to talk about. And one of the things that I saw in your LinkedIn is an article from- I want to say it was on LinkedIn from McKinsey or somewhere. I can’t remember the source of it now. It was about thriving cultures and how to defend against disruption with AI. And AI is an amazing tool. It’s also an idiot savant to your point. It can only guess. It doesn’t always know everything, even though we appoint it magical powers because it does all this stuff.

[00:38:34]

In general, in terms of culture, I think the most important thing is to consider AI as a way to enhance a person’s work, take some of the mundane drudgery out. I think the article and some of the stuff that you cited- let them do more strategic human work, analyze, that kind of thing. But I’m curious about your take on generative AI and how it can impact culture and what you’re seeing with the clients that you work with, if anything.

Fiona Jameson: [00:39:02]

And that article was interesting. It talked about how you use the best of AI, I guess. And it really talks about how employers have to shift the way they think about work away from this assembly line approach of how many people can how many widgets on a pallet, at what speed to more of a how do we manage high-performing athletes or artists where we give them the freedom to produce at the rate at which they’re doing their best work with continuous feedback and continuous training.

[00:39:41]

So, leveraging the technology to take away that mundane and also shift of thinking about how it’s not about necessarily where you’re doing the work, how you’re doing the work, at what pace. Because if you can write 10,000 lines of code- the example they give as a software developer. So, a software developer can develop 10,000 lines of code in a week to make something happen, but a different developer could write a thousand words of code and get the same thing done in half the time.

[00:40:15]

We shouldn’t see the 10,000 code as he’s the best producer because he created more whereas the 1000 is more efficient. And I think if we can use generative AI to get us from the 10,000 to the 1000 and get us the same level of performance, that’s what we need to be aiming for. And I try to talk to that about my team when they’re running analysis. You could look at the data for days. There are thousands and thousands of data points. But if you run the right analysis and get to the core of it quicker, you can spend more time saying, what do we do about it? And how do we create an impact? And how can we spend more time on action planning than digging through piles and piles of data?

[00:40:57]

And I think employers need to embrace generative AI to help you to get from the 10,000 lines of code to the 1000 lines of code, improve efficiencies, to just free up your people to do some of those other tasks.

Phil Wilson: [00:41:12]

Yeah. There’s an old story about the world’s greatest expert on this particular machine. And it broke down and they brought him in. He got out a piece of chalk and put an X right where the machine had broken down. And then they said, “Oh, thank you for helping us fix it, send us a bill.” And he sent this bill for $100,000. And they’re like, “Well, could you itemize that?” And he’s like, “Yeah. Item one was the piece of chalk. That was a dollar. The rest of it is knowing where to put the X.” But seriously, if you can do it efficiently and you have the expertise, how long it took you to get there, or how much work you did to do it- it’s like the actually the least amount of work is probably the best.

Fiona Jameson: [00:42:02]

Yeah. And there are so many CEOs still today saying, I want my employees back in the office because they’ll be more productive. And the data hasn’t proven that. The data has proven, actually, when you eliminate someone’s commute and they can get their work done in less amount of time, they’re more efficient and they’re happier about it. So, I think there’s always a balance. Accountability is key and fairness. But I think if you can get your employees to do the same amount of work with the flexibility that you can afford them, why wouldn’t you? Because it makes everybody’s life better.

Michael Vandervort: [00:42:41]

And I think that that this is also potentially- we see a lot of negotiation of Hollywood negotiation with CBAs and stuff about AI replacing writers and this kind of thing. And you’re like “Well, that’s Hollywood. Voice-over actors there. It’s like athletes. They’re a different breed of business.” But I had a conversation at an organizational meeting that we mutually go to a couple of times a year last year with somebody.

[00:43:09]

And the conversation basically went like this. “We have a freelance writer who writes for us, and we pay her 5 or $6000 a month to draft, you know, all these articles that we use on our website. And I went to my boss and said, why don’t we use ChatGPT to do those articles and save that money?” And I was like, dude, no, don’t. Because first of all, it’ll be crap. And secondly, what you can do is use ChatGPT to help him or her, whichever, do drafts, and knock out more work. Augment the how to augment the work and get them to be more productive. Don’t replace them.

[00:43:51]

So, it became an opportunity to make work easier, which is what you were saying a minute ago versus creating a labor relations crisis where somebody’s been replaced, and now your employees want to go out and form a union so that they can protect their jobs from the evil technology. So, there’s some real baseline stuff to what we do here, even though it doesn’t always appear in all the articles about AI. I’m curious what you guys think about that.

Fiona Jameson: [00:44:18]

I think it’s something that we need to incorporate and we need to incorporate it in a thoughtful way and in a very critical way. And my experience has also been, as you may know, I teach occasionally at the University of Villanova here in Philadelphia, and I teach people analytics because I’m a geek. And what they’re doing in academia is truly embracing AI. It’s embracing ChatGPT. And we’ll say, “Okay, have ChatGPT write and write something, and then you critique it. Say what’s right about it, what’s missing.” So, teaching them to embrace it versus using it as a cheat tool.

[00:44:52]

And then we change the way we do assignments now as a function of- it has to be something that they heard and they participate in in class. So, ChatGPT is not going to know the answer. So, I think embracing it where necessary and then using it to fact-check. You could say, well look at this. And now, I’m going to fact-check it and learn more. So, I think industries and organizations that embrace it and see its uses, and apply it in a thoughtful, critical way will advance quickly.

[00:45:23]

Those who just go, “Oh, we’re just going to throw all our marketing into here and see what it spits out,” are going to fail. But as you say, enhancing your team with it, giving them speed and efficiency, I don’t see much wrong with it, to be honest.

Phil Wilson: [00:45:39]

Yeah. While we’re comparing nerd cards, I love chess. And chess has been impacted. For decades, computers have been trying to solve chess. And one of the main things that we’ve learned is that first of all, they haven’t solved it. It’s that complicated. But also when you marry a human expert with the technology, you learn exponentially more. So, the tool by itself without the expert is dumb. And so, going back to Michael’s example, yes, draft the article. It makes it so much easier and faster.

[00:46:28]

And that drudgery in that whole process of creating great work- and so then once you have that created now the human expert can then apply their knowledge and experience. And that’s way more fun. And so, that’s the right way to use it. I don’t see AI just getting rid of humans anytime soon. And I think at the point that it’s able to do that, then we’re living the Terminator anyway, and it doesn’t matter. But I do think there is a lot to be said for taking advantage of what it can remove that’s drudgery so that you can really focus on your gift.

Fiona Jameson: [00:47:15]

Yeah. I had a similar experience about a decade ago. So, you know tools like Excel and PowerPoint can create charts and images and things for you. You put your data in, it’ll spit out a chart. And probably a decade or so ago, we’d be like, “Great, that chart looks wonderful.” But once you learn about data visualization, how many pixels should be used, the use of color, and how to influence others with your images, which is the expert knowledge that you gain right in the field, suddenly what that spits out is horrible.

[00:47:49]

And so, you’re having to adjust it and humanize it and make it look a lot better. So, if you don’t have an expert who knows about data visualization and color, then you’re going to get the Excel default, which maybe does the job but doesn’t do it well. And I think that’s the same that’s going on now. You’re going to get the dumb stuff that actually isn’t great once you overlay that.

Michael Vandervort: [00:48:15]

The thing I learned from you in a presentation that you were doing about this kind of stuff at some point never would have occurred to me because I’m not colorblind. But you pointed out, I believe, that some that of the favorite colors for certain kinds of charts are actually colors where people are colorblind. And so you should. And that’s like if you don’t live that experience- I didn’t know it. And I was like, that seems so obvious once you heard it. I was fascinated.

Fiona Jameson: [00:48:42]

I was in an executive presentation last week and they were showing me a chart. And I said, oh, this is red and green. And I said I’m guessing there’s probably one person in this boardroom that can’t see those colors. And one hand went up and he said,  I have no idea what that chart said.” And they all looked at him and were like, “Wait, you’re colorblind?” And he’s like, “Oh, I always struggle in these meetings.” And I thought, see, had they known that …

[00:49:10]

And there are so many other accessibility things in terms of interpreting data that we just don’t think about. So yeah, I’m a huge proponent. My son is colorblind, so is my father, so I’ve lived with it my whole life. I’m sure later he’ll say, I watched a podcast and you were wearing a brown dress.

Michael Vandervort: [00:49:35]

Okay. We’re up against the clock, so I want to finish up. We always try to end with a little bit of fun. And so, we’re going to do a battle of the bands, US versus UK here, and see where you stand on which side of the pond since you’ve lived on both. And so, the question is musically who do you prefer, classic us such as the Beach Boys, Elvis Presley, and Taylor Swift? Or does your heart reside across the pond with the Beatles, Elvis Costello, and Adele, or whoever it may be? Tell us what your musical tastes look like.

Fiona Jameson: [00:50:09]

So, I’m really eclectic when it comes to music. I love everything from old-school jazz and big bands to classic rock. So, you’ll hear me listening to Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald, and then I’ll be listening to Queen and the Rolling Stones. So, anything within that spectrum. I’m not a big fan of Country. But outside of that, I love music and the experience and how it makes me feel. And if it tells you anything about my musical taste, I shall share the last two concerts I went to.

[00:50:42]

I am a massive Sting fan, and I saw Sting play with the Philadelphia Orchestra, which was the most incredible sound I’d ever heard. It was just amazing. And I just got back from going to a Taylor Swift concert with my daughter. So, please forgive me. And I will tell you what I took away from that. It’s too long to stand up. She’s an incredible performer. She’s a powerhouse and did it all in the rain, didn’t stop, and sang 46 songs. And at age 50, that was too long for me to be standing up on my feet.

[00:51:15]

So, the next concert I go to, I will be taking my own chair and maybe a snack and perhaps a flask. She just sang 46 songs and after the 20th, I was like, they’re all sounding the same to me. I can’t. I’m like, is it done? But incredible performance. So, it’s pretty eclectic, I would say I’m a cultural chameleon when it comes to music. I will listen to whatever is being played in the environment and enjoy it just as much, unless it’s Country.

Phil Wilson: [00:51:48]

My last show was just a week or so ago, which was the Rolling Stones. They finished their tour here not far from here, Branson, Missouri. So, I would just say Taylor Swift, I’ll see you when you’re 81 years old, which is how old Mick Jagger is.

Fiona Jameson: [00:52:04]

And he rocked it in Philly, too. He was amazing.

Michael Vandervort: [00:52:09]

I was laughing when Phil and his buddy came rolling back, looking like they just got back from a dorm trip across the country. It wasn’t that bad, but I was like, I saw Mick Jagger in Dallas in the late 1980s, and I thought he was old then. So, my next concert is the Bare Naked Ladies who are Canadian. I’m going to see them here in Tulsa. But I saw Sting and Peter Gabriel play together back in 2016, in Chicago. And that was absolutely the best concert I’ve ever been to. I go to your side of the pond for my musical preference.

Fiona Jameson: [00:52:50]

Well, I will say that if there are any listeners out there who want to buy me a ticket to see Sting play with Billy Joel in Las Vegas, I’m there. I’ll be your forever friend. Because I cannot- I’m like, that just seems like too much for me to do. But I feel like that would be the perfect combination of what I love about the US and what I love about Britain is Sting and Billy Joel. I mean, come on. That’s on my wish list. So, listeners, if you’d like to donate to the Go Fund Me.

Michael Vandervort: [00:53:21]

Do you have a GoFundMe or a Venmo or Cash app [laughs]?

Fiona Jameson: [00:53:25]

I should. My Venmo is [laughs].

Michael Vandervort: [00:53:30]

We’re not going to list any of the fundraising. That’s a political thing these days. So, Zoom is raising millions of dollars on both sides. So anyway, we’re standing between you and whatever you’re going to do the rest of the day. And Phil finishing up his last day before he heads out of town for vacation. So, thanks very much for being on the show. It’s always a joy to chat with you. And it was again today. So, great to have you here.

Fiona Jameson: [00:53:53]

Likewise. Thank you so much for having me on.

Phil Wilson: [00:53:55]

Yeah, it was great to see you, Fiona. Thanks so much. And we’ll see you soon.